Consumer Issues : Your Opinion

[RFID-Skeptic]

If it (item level serialization) does not seem like
much benefit to you then you must not be in the
retail or warehousing business.

I am not in the retail or warehousing business. I'm
just an individual who has seen everyone's privacy
eroded at the hands of aggressive, intrusive
businesses like DoubleClick. I have yet to hear of a
benefit to retailers which would justify this
seeming desire to have most item level serialized
RFID tags still active after the sale. You would
think that the possibility of having a mixture of
sold and unsold RFID tags interacting with readers
would be enough of a hindrance to make retailers
happy to deactivate all tags at the time of sale,
but instead I'm hearing silly justifications like
home inventories.

So, please tell me what the benefit is for the
retailer, or warehouser of having a large number of
acitve, item level serialized, RFID tags among the
general population outside of the retail and
warehouse space.

As for the risk, you still have
not made a case. You just say that there is a
risk

.

I'm not sure what would be required for you to
concede that the widespread proliferation of active,
uniquely identified transponders on consumer items
poses a risk that those same transponders will be
used to identify and track the activities of
consumers.

History of similar circumstances is usually the best
indicator of future risk. Doubleclick's history with
cookies is an example of what has happened when an
aggressive company takes advantage of the ability to
place or read unique identifiers on individual
consumers(or their computers).

Will you at least concede that if individuals are
tracked in real space to the same degree they are on the
web, it would be a bad thing?

Or, you could just take them off and throw them in
the trash.

And I can just delete the email spam I get, and
delete my tracking cookies, and peel those silly
stickers of the apples I eat, and do all the other
things made necessary by companies whose business
plans treat the resources of consumers as something
to be used without asking permission.

Most of the tags are in smart labels held on with
adhesive others are on dangling labels.

So, would you support a law requiring that ALL item
level serialized retail RFID tags be easily spotted
and easily removed? And that retailers not require
they be kept in order to return an item?

Not really, as long as the
consumer is aware that the tags are there and if
they are as concerned as you are, I'm sure that they
will notice the EPC logo.

(explaining that
doing something and telling the consumer you've done
it is no different from asking the consumer's
permission before you do it)

Why should deactivating the tags be the exception
rather than the rule when the vast majority of
consumers have no desire or ability to do automated
home inventories?

You are exaggerating the risk. The tags can be
discarded at any time. Also, the risk of misuse is
more minor than you seem to be willing to accept.
You are tying together unrelated acts in the attempt
to build a case for fear.

I am merely reacting to the fact that you haven't
built a case for trust despite the fact that
businesses have proved untrustworthy under very
similar circumstances in the very recent past.

- hackers, unintended sharing, "following around"
strawmen snipped -

I think the privacy threat most likely to result
from the widespread proliferation of consumer
objects with uniqely identifiable RFID tags is the
intentional sharing of consumer identity and and
transaction information with a third party customer
identity service provider.

I see nothing in the newly ratified EPCIS data
sharing standard to prevent the emergence of such a
service provider.

The purpose of the standard is to "enable disparate
applications to leverage Electronic Product Code
(EPC) data via EPC-related data sharing, both within
and across enterprises. Ultimately, this sharing is
aimed at enabling participants in the
EPCglobal Network to gain a shared view of the
disposition of EPC-bearing objects within a relevant
business context."

The poorest store owner can accept
credit cards. The infrastructure for RFID is
nowwhere near as ubiquitous. Only major
distributors and retailers will probably adopt it.
These are places that can benefit from the
ROI.

That was true about UPC scanners at first too.

You are trying to pretend that the
public is a powerless victim of some insidious RFID
empowered invader. This is simply not the case.

The industry is using RFID to improve product
availaibility in the hopes that the public will
spend more money to buy the more available products
that they like.

It is not necessary for each item to have it's own
unique identifier to accomplish that. Tagging every
item of the same unique type with the same number is
all that is necessary. What difference does it make
whether IPOD number 123456 was not there when I
wanted to buy one. How would you know I wanted to
buy one anyway?

Also, the industry hopes to
reduce the amount of product that gets "lost" in the
warehouse.

It is not necessary to have the tag active after it
has been sold in order to accomplish that.

The public can remove the tags
at will. The public is in control.

Normally control implies prior consent rather than
mitigation after the fact. I can clean up after a
hurricane - do I therefore control the weather?

Three words, one URL: Norton Internet Security

http://www.symantec.com

(in response to my pointing out how widespread
online tracking is despite the ability to remove
cookies)

The fact that online folks are paying third parties
like Symantec to do the online equivalent of "just
take them off and throw them in the trash" is a good
reason for not allowing item serialized RFIDs to be
active past the point of sale without prior consent.

The tags don't last forever. One good washing and
they are dead. Wear and tear... dead.
Electrostatic discharge... dead. Your case requires
that too many things work that simply can't be
guaranteed to work.

And, of course, people who don't want tags on their
property will not forget that they are there. How
many people walk around with price tags on their
clothing? People who don't want price tags on their
clothing, anyway. :-) People are just too
persistent about things that matter to them.

Removing tags is a ritual of ownership and has
become a commonplace reflex. Maybe you just don't
notice anymore that you remove tags all of the time.
My point exactly.

My case only requires that some of many active
unique RFIDs be active on many people at any given
time to make it worthwhile for businesses to make
use of that fact.

Cookies are likewise easily destroyed and very few if any people want to be tracked online.

Yet DoubleClick thrives.

[dbell]

I am not in the retail or warehousing business. I'm
just an individual who has seen everyone's privacy
eroded at the hands of aggressive, intrusive
businesses like DoubleClick .

Most consumers don't understand computers well enough to be able to remove the cookies. Most consumers do know how to remove price and product tags. The analogy is not well founded.

I have yet to hear of a
benefit to retailers which would justify this
seeming desire to have most item level serialized
RFID tags still active after the sale.

There are several benefits depending on the product. For pharma, serialization helps prevent counterfeiting. For food and drugs, serialization permits simpler recalls and batch control. For assembled items, work in progress history maybe maintained. These are probably the drivers for adding serialization to the EPC standard. For high priced clothing, serialization also helps prevent counterfeiting. Specific numbers can be traced through the supply chain. Sources of duplicate or out of system numbers can be investigated.

You would
think that the possibility of having a mixture of
sold and unsold RFID tags interacting with readers
would be enough of a hindrance to make retailers
happy to deactivate all tags at the time of sale,
but instead I'm hearing silly justifications like
home inventories .

The industry probably expects people to remove the tags that would be on their person as they do with other product tags. Home inventory items normally are not carried on ones person. People tend to not "walk" their groceries.

So, please tell me what the benefit is for the
retailer, or warehouser of having a large number of
acitve, item level serialized, RFID tags among the
general population outside of the retail and
warehouse space .

Except for home inventory which may promote a few more timely sales. There is no benefit. They expect that the tags will be discarded once they leave the retail space.

I'm not sure what would be required for you to
concede that the widespread proliferation of active,
uniquely identified transponders on consumer items
poses a risk that those same transponders will be
used to identify and track the activities of
consumers.

A lack of knowledge about RFID would be a good start for me to make such a concession. Ignorance of the goals of businesses that implement these systems would help... But seriously, if the industry was intending to hide the tags, I would be worried somewhat. Only because, I am a conspiracy theorist at heart. But, EPCglobal met resistance early on about not making the tags obvious and came up with the EPC logo to mark all tagged items. Consumer watchdog groups have been watching the industry since its inception. Your arguments are nothing new. People have anticipated fears such as yours and are attempting to find economic answers for them.

History of similar circumstances is usually the best
indicator of future risk. Doubleclick's history with
cookies is an example of what has happened when an
aggressive company takes advantage of the ability to
place or read unique identifiers on individual
consumers(or their computers).

Again, Most consumers don't understand computers well enough to be able to remove the cookies. Every consumer knows how to remove price tags.

Will you at least concede that if individuals are
tracked in real space to the same degree they are on the
web, it would be a bad thing?

If it were possible, it would be bad. EPC RFID does not have the capability. Its not designed for a "web level" of tracking. As Scotty said, "Ya canna change the laws of physics". The internet has tons of infrastructure that has been installed and upgraded over decades just to make sure that the "call goes through". Or, in this case that the bits get from their computer to your computer and back to theirs. EPC RFID does not have that level of connectivity.

And I can just delete the email spam I get, and
delete my tracking cookies, and peel those silly
stickers of the apples I eat, and do all the other
things made necessary by companies whose business
plans treat the resources of consumers as something
to be used without asking permission.

Sorry for your troubles, but companies are trying to make money. They provide services and products and are trying to optimize ways of providing the service/product or advertising their service or product. Perhaps you could join a consumer advocacy group and work for change. The companies are motivated by money, get enough consumers to agree with you and the companies will comply.

So, would you support a law requiring that ALL item
level serialized retail RFID tags be easily spotted
and easily removed? And that retailers not require
they be kept in order to return an item?

Sure, but you'll still have to have a receipt.

Why should deactivating the tags be the exception rather than the rule when the vast majority of
consumers have no desire or ability to do automated
home inventories?

If you press for it hard enough, I'm sure that stores will start deactivating the tags unless requested otherwise. But how can you pretend to speak for all consumers. I'm a bit of a luddite and personally would not like a home inventory system. But, I'm not too particular about TiVO either. There's nothing wrong with good ol' VHS. :-)

I think the privacy threat most likely to result
from the widespread proliferation of consumer
objects with uniqely identifiable RFID tags is the
intentional sharing of consumer identity and and
transaction information with a third party customer
identity service provider.

OK. Now let me get this straight. You are worried that someone will know what you bought. You know that marketing companies can do this already. Right? (credit and consumer cards)

I see nothing in the newly ratified EPCIS data
sharing standard to prevent the emergence of such a
service provider.

Targeted marketing, what a concept. You don't need EPC data for this. In fact, EPC data alone does not enable this.

The purpose of the standard is to "enable disparate
applications to leverage Electronic Product Code
(EPC) data via EPC-related data sharing, both within
and across enterprises. Ultimately, this sharing is
aimed at enabling participants in the
EPCglobal Network to gain a shared view of the
disposition of EPC-bearing objects within a relevant
business context."

"within a relevant business context" you can bet that tags scanned at Target will not be in any database accessible by Walmart.

That was true about UPC scanners at first too.

True. Barcode scanners are pretty inexpensive, but not as widespread as credit card scanners.

It is not necessary for each item to have it's own
unique identifier to accomplish that. Tagging every
item of the same unique type with the same number is
all that is necessary. What difference does it make
whether IPOD number 123456 was not there when I
wanted to buy one. How would you know I wanted to
buy one anyway?

See business uses above.

It is not necessary to have the tag active after it
has been sold in order to accomplish that.

True. But the tags are easily destroyed or discarded as are other price or product tags.

Normally control implies prior consent rather than
mitigation after the fact. I can clean up after a
hurricane - do I therefore control the weather?

No. But having a serialized tag that can be destroyed is nothing like a hurricane. The metaphor is a bit much.

The fact that online folks are paying third parties
like Symantec to do the online equivalent of "just
take them off and throw them in the trash" is a good
reason for not allowing item serialized RFIDs to be
active past the point of sale without prior consent.

Huh?

My case only requires that some of many active
unique RFIDs be active on many people at any given
time to make it worthwhile for businesses to make
use of that fact.

You haven't made a case for how the businesses would gather any info that they don't already have through credit or consumer cards.

Cookies are likewise easily destroyed and very few if any people want to be tracked online.

Yet DoubleClick thrives.

Again, most consumers don't understand computers well enough to be able to remove the cookies. Most consumers do know how to remove price and product tags.

I'm finishing yet another RFID project and I'm a little tired, so this verbal fencing match must wind to a close. However, may I suggest a couple of websites to keep in touch with the industry? Some of the articles express and address some of the points that you've made.

For general information:
http://www.epcglobalinc.org/home

To address your concerns:
http://www.aimglobal.org/members/new...2459&zoneid=43

Thanks,
Dbell

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